MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Donald Trump's first presidency was marked by near-constant turnover of senior personnel, some of who went on to say Donald Trump is unfit for office. In this second administration, the focus seems to be on hiring loyalists who will not challenge the incoming president's wishes. As the former and future president plans his next term, we wanted to talk through what we are hearing about both the Departments of Defense and state. And to do that, I am joined by NPR's Tom Bowman, who covers the Pentagon - welcome...
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hey, Mary Louise.
KELLY: ...And Michele Kelemen, who covers the State Department. So let's start there. Hi, Michele.
MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Hi, Mary Louise.
KELLY: What are you hearing about what may be in store for State?
KELEMEN: What we know so far is that Trump's former point person on Iran, Brian Hook, is going to lead the transition team over here in the office - is ready for his team. As for who is going to be Secretary of State, there are kind of a few names in the mix. One is Ric Grenell. He was Trump's ambassador to Germany and then acting director of national intelligence. He's been a fixture on the campaign trail, very close to the Trump family, and has some business deals in the Balkans, for instance, with Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner.
He's known to be quite caustic, Grenell, and he dresses down his critics, especially in the media. Now, Trump could decide to keep him closer to him in the White House as national security adviser, which is a job that doesn't need Senate confirmation. But with the Senate held by Republicans, getting Grenell confirmed probably won't be a problem.
But there are some senators who do want the job. There's Bill Hagerty of Tennessee. He's a former businessman who was Trump's ambassador to Japan, so he knows the State Department well. And there's Marco Rubio of Florida, who appears to be in the running, and I've seen him a lot on Fox News. That's kind of the way that folks auditioned for Trump in the past.
KELLY: Tom Bowman, what about at the Pentagon?
BOWMAN: Well, one of the big names we're hearing, Mary Louise, is Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas. He's a former army officer with combat time in Iraq and Afghanistan, well respected. He's advocated, however, using the military in a support role against protesters in American cities - it was somewhat controversial. Now, Axios is reporting Cotton would prefer to stay in the Senate, where Republicans have taken control, and try for a leadership post. Now, if not Cotton, another member of Congress for the Pentagon chief could be congressman Mike Waltz of Florida, who also served multiple tours in Afghanistan as a Green Beret, worked for Donald Rumsfeld and Robert Gates at the Pentagon as well.
KELLY: Right. And Waltz actually was on NPR this morning. They talked to him on Morning Edition. I want to play a little bit of what he said 'cause he weighed in on Pentagon spending and personnel.
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MIKE WALTZ: There is a whole slew of new technologies from Silicon Valley and elsewhere that are really chomping at the bit to help with our defense and security issues, and they can't break through the bureaucracy. So I think we do need new leadership. We need a culture change. We need to focus the Defense Department on being the meritocracy that it has always been.
BOWMAN: Well, you know, he raises a good point, Mary Louise, on high-tech gear. I was at an Army training exercise in Louisiana recently, and this brigade of the 101st was using small drones, electronic decoys, cyber capabilities, and Army officials want to quickly get this gear into the hands of soldiers. The Pentagon purchasing rules, however, just take too long.
KELLY: I heard something else in that tape that I want you to go back to - when he talked about focusing the Defense Department on being a meritocracy. What's he getting at?
BOWMAN: Yeah, that was interesting. The military has always prided itself on being a meritocracy, but there have been complaints from the Trump camp that the Pentagon is too focused on diversity - too woke, as they say. So it seems Congressman Waltz is picking up on that by mentioning meritocracy. So what does that mean in practical terms? Do you remove certain high-level military officers and replace them? Last time, in the waning days of the first Trump administration, they tried to remove certain officers and replace them with, quote, "their officers," but time ran out.
KELLY: OK, Michele, back to you. The incoming Trump administration obviously is going to be walking right into two major wars underway - Ukraine, the Middle East. At the State Department, what plans are being laid for how those conflicts will be handled?
KELEMEN: Yeah. I mean, Ukraine is the big concern for the Biden team. They're trying to get as much aid out the door as possible before they leave office and get the Europeans to take more of a lead. Trump has said he would end the war quickly, but it's not clear, you know, what kind of deal Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy can take at the moment, since Russian President Vladimir Putin will feel emboldened by Trump's victory. So there's just a lot of nervousness around Ukraine right now.
In the Middle East, the Biden administration has just seen its influence kind of evaporate overnight. They had been pushing the Israelis to get more aid into Gaza, even holding out the possibility of withholding U.S. military aid. They're also pushing for a cease-fire in Lebanon, but Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu might, you know, just want to wait them out at this point.
KELLY: What about closer to home? Because another thing Trump has talked about during the campaign is using the National Guard - using active-duty military to round up and deport undocumented immigrants. Can he do that? What do we know?
BOWMAN: Well, all we know is what Trump has said. He says, on Day 1, he will begin removing millions of undocumented migrants. He's talked about using the National Guard for such an effort, maybe active-duty military. People I talk with say the military could be used in a support role to help local authorities. Now, this could be disruptive for the military, as far as planning, costs. Some troops may decide, Mary Louise, not to take part.
KELLY: Michele, last word to you - I always hesitate to ask about the mood of a whole department because it's big, and I'm sure there are a lot of competing views. But what is the mood at the State Department? How are the rank-and-file reacting to this week's news?
KELEMEN: Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of nervousness. The last time the Trump administration came to office, Trump named former Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson as secretary of state, and it was pretty chaotic. The department was hollowed out. Tillerson himself was pushed out after a year for not being loyal enough.
This time around, the Trump team seems to be more ready. I mean, the chapter on the State Department in Project 2025 was written by a former Trump appointee who said that the State Department has too many people who are left-wing and who disagree with the conservative president's policy. So the goal is to get as many political appointees in office on Day 1, so there's just a feeling that a lot of people are going to be pushed out very quickly.
KELLY: That is NPR's Michele Kelemen and Tom Bowman. So much for you both to cover between now and January 20. Thank you.
BOWMAN: You're welcome.
KELEMEN: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF SINY'S "ORANGE") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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