SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Thanksgiving is almost here, and you know what that means - family, friends, food and debates, specifically debates about turkey. Now, for years, my colleague Tamara Keith and I have been advocating to anyone who will listen on the airwaves, in the hallways at work, in text messages, everywhere about one of the most divisive topics of the holiday season - to brine or not to brine your turkey.
Feels like enough grains of salt to brine a turkey in.
TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: I would say yes, as someone who brines a turkey...
DETROW: OK.
KEITH: ...Who will be brining a turkey tonight.
DETROW: OK.
KEITH: Yeah, absolutely - brine your turkey.
DETROW: Yeah, Tamara Keith, Scott Detrow, both brine our separate turkeys. You should do it too.
We're saying that...
KEITH: Wait, brining is controversial?
DETROW: Check out the internet.
I figured this weekend before Thanksgiving, it was time to take part of that recurring NPR Politics Podcast discussion to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. So here we are. Tamara Keith, when we're not talking turkeys, you are NPR senior White House correspondent. Welcome to the show.
KEITH: Yes. Thank you for having me.
DETROW: You've been brining turkey since what - since, like, George W. Bush was president?
KEITH: He was definitely president when I started brining turkeys. Yeah, I found a recipe in the San Francisco Chronicle way back when, and I've been using the same tattered recipe almost this whole time. And Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday.
DETROW: It's my favorite holiday, too. It is the best holiday by far. We agree on that. We agree on the importance of brining, but not everybody agrees - right? - including some of our coworkers. They roll their eyes at this.
KEITH: Yes. Well, you know, it is a little bit of extra work or a lot of extra work if you don't have a good method. But, you know, the results are real. They can't be denied.
DETROW: I guess we'll find out because as much as we'd like to think - we are not actually experts. So let's bring an actual expert in. Chef and food writer Sohla El-Waylly, welcome.
SOHLA EL-WAYLLY: Hello.
DETROW: I guess - are Tam and I right or wrong?
EL-WAYLLY: Both.
DETROW: OK.
EL-WAYLLY: Well, I guess...
DETROW: Yeah, tell us.
EL-WAYLLY: ...A lot of turkeys do come pre-brined, and I think that's important to remember. Oftentimes they're injected with a lot of liquid and a lot of salt. I personally don't buy turkeys like that 'cause I don't want to pay for water. I prefer to do my own brine. I always brine my turkey. I find the more controversial issue is whether to wet or dry brine.
DETROW: Just real quickly, we're going to talk about it more, but what's the key difference between a wet and a dry brine?
EL-WAYLLY: So a wet brine, you have your salt, and it's dissolved into water. And then you submerge your entire bird in that mixture, so it can take up a lot of space. A dry brine, you're really just sprinkling the seasoning all over and letting it hang out. But if you have a pre-brined turkey, I wouldn't brine it. I would air dry it in the fridge so you can get good rendering on your skin. So like, when you're having these arguments with your coworkers, what are the details of their turkey? How much do you know?
DETROW: I just know that when we talk about brining, we get eye rolls from a lot of people.
KEITH: Maybe, Scott, it's just that we talk about it too much.
DETROW: That actually...
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: Well, let's address that later and push that out of our heads. But mostly, I would say mostly, Sohla, that it's unnecessary, that you're doing something for no reason at all. And you're putting a lot of work into it, so what are you doing? - I feel like is it.
EL-WAYLLY: Oh, well, that is completely false.
DETROW: OK.
EL-WAYLLY: It definitely does a lot. Regardless of whether you use a dry brine or a wet brine, what they do is the salt obviously penetrates the meat, which seasons it, but more importantly, it actually breaks down some of the proteins in the muscle fibers into a gel that retains moisture when you cook it, making it harder to overcook and dry out the meat. Both wet and dry brines do that. Dry fur (ph) because it has this extra benefit of drying out the skin and breaking down the fat on the surface of the skin, so you get better rendering and browning when you roast your turkey. I also prefer a dry brine just 'cause it's easier to fit in your fridge 'cause there's a lot going on in there...
KEITH: Yeah.
EL-WAYLLY: ...For Thanksgiving.
KEITH: I will say, I was on team wet brine for a lot of years and finally figured out that, you know, using garbage bags was maybe not the best plan, discovered the wonders of a five-gallon, industrial food-grade paint bucket, and then, after all of that, realized, oh, dry brining is actually much easier. It is not as messy, no more disasters, and it works.
EL-WAYLLY: It really does. And it doesn't require that much special equipment. You just - you put it on whatever you're going to roast your turkey.
DETROW: Sohla, can I read you - I copied and pasted my Google Docs notes about my brine, and can I get your take on what you think of my approach here?
EL-WAYLLY: For sure.
DETROW: So, OK - (reading) citrus brine, frozen OJ, two oranges, lemon, lime, garlic, salt, bay leaves, brown sugar, water, do this in big pot Tues. (ph) night.
And the context is, I usually end up smoking a big turkey breast on a smoker.
EL-WAYLLY: Wait, what was the first ingredient?
DETROW: Frozen orange juice.
EL-WAYLLY: Like the concentrate?
DETROW: Yeah, that and then, like, obviously, other liquid as well.
EL-WAYLLY: Wow. I haven't thought of frozen juice concentrate in years.
DETROW: Neither have I. I think only in this setting, and I truly actually don't know how I got there. But I wrote this in a Google Doc 10 years ago, and I've been going with it ever since.
EL-WAYLLY: I think that sounds great. And the concentrate's really smart because you are, you know, concentrating the flavor. You're going to have more sugar and better caramelization.
DETROW: I was feeling self-conscious there, but now I'm going to say, yeah, thank you. I appreciate it.
(LAUGHTER)
EL-WAYLLY: No, nothing to be self-conscious about.
KEITH: Well, can you walk us through the perfect dry brine, also, just in case we want to be on team dry brine over here?
EL-WAYLLY: Well, I think to start, it's best to use kosher salt. If you use a fine salt, it's just very hard to evenly distribute it across the meat. And I like to mix my salt with a little bit of baking powder - that helps browning - and a little bit of MSG just to, like, bump up the flavor. But those things are optional. The other thing to keep in mind is if you add too many spices, it can kind of hinder the salt from doing its thing. So never add more than, like, 50% of the volume of salt in spices. If you want more spice than that, I recommend you sprinkle it on right before roasting, after you've, like, buttered up your bird.
But other than that, like, there's really nothing to it. You have your kosher salt, maybe with a little baking powder, spice, whatever. Rain it on from high and just make sure you get into, like, every single nook and cranny. So like, peel open that thigh, get inside the cavity, make sure you get underneath, open up that wing.
And I think another thing to keep in mind is the density of the meat, depending on what part of the turkey you're handling, is different. So a wing, you're going to need to go a little lighter on the salt. Wings can tend to get over salted 'cause they're so small. The breast is really thick - go a little heavier on the salt there. So just, like, think about, like, how dense is this portion of meat where I'm salting?
KEITH: And is there a math formula?
EL-WAYLLY: Math formula - I mean, I've heard people say half a teaspoon of salt per pound. Some people say one teaspoon of salt per pound, but I think that if you try and measure it that precisely, it's very hard to sprinkle. So I think it's better to just have more of your brine mixture than you need and just eyeball it. Just go with your gut.
KEITH: And then massage.
DETROW: (Laughter).
EL-WAYLLY: No massage.
DETROW: Tam, you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that.
KEITH: Just rub - no real massage, just rub.
EL-WAYLLY: Just sprinkle, just sprinkle - it's the - it'll distribute the most evenly that way. Just sprinkle it on. Put it on a sheet tray with a wire rack, pop it in your fridge. Like, three days, I think is the best, but if all you have is two days or one day, that's fine, too. And then afterwards, the skin's going to be really dry then. That's when you can, like, do some massaging. So if you rub it around when the salt has just been added, you'll scrape off some of that salt. So afterwards, you can rub on your butter, sprinkle on more spices, if you really want to give it a rub down, like, that's the time.
DETROW: That is chef and food writer Sohla El-Waylly. I got to say, I feel both validated and informed, which is the best place to be. Thank you so much for joining us.
EL-WAYLLY: Thanks for having me.
DETROW: Her latest book is "Start Here: Instructions For Becoming A Better Cook." And we're also joined by NPR's Tamara Keith. Tam, happy Thanksgiving - always good to talk to you.
KEITH: We may be texting during the day on Thanksgiving, just to work this out.
DETROW: Enjoy your turkey massaging.
KEITH: Apparently, I don't need to do that.
DETROW: You know, if it brings you joy, just keep doing it, I guess.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'VE GOT PLENTY TO BE THANKFUL FOR")
BING CROSBY: (Singing) I've got plenty to be thankful for. No private car, no caviar, no carpet on my floor - still I've got plenty to be thankful for. I've got eyes to see with, ears to hear with, arms to hug with, lips to kiss with, someone to adore. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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