LEILA FADEL, HOST:
Two federal judges ordered the U.S. to reinstate thousands of fired federal workers.
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
The judges say the mass firings were conducted in a way that appears to be illegal. All of the employees were on probationary status, meaning they were in their first year or two on the job, for the most part. One ruling covers the Departments of Veterans Affairs, Defense, Agriculture, Energy, Interior and Treasury - a lot of federal departments. The other case was brought by Democratic state attorneys general and covered even more agencies but is just temporary.
FADEL: We're joined now by NPR's Chris Arnold, who has been watching all of this. Hi, Chris.
CHRIS ARNOLD, BYLINE: Hey, Leila.
FADEL: OK, so two rulings. Let's start with this case out of San Francisco. What did the judge say yesterday?
ARNOLD: The judge said a lot, actually. This is a dramatic hearing. This is District Judge William Alsup. And one thing he said is that these workers were lied to about why they were fired. He said, quote, "it's a sad day when our government would fire some good employee and say it was based on performance when they know good and well that that is a lie." And the idea there is that firing workers for bad performance made it easier to fire them, but it wasn't true. Many workers got glowing reviews from supervisors. They'd been doing a good job. We've spoken with some of these workers. The judge called the mass firing a sham to get around statutory requirements. And he said that the administration exceeded its authority by having one office in the government direct so many other agencies to just summarily fire all these workers.
FADEL: OK, so some strong language there from the judge. What was the government's...
ARNOLD: Yeah.
FADEL: ...Argument that these were legitimate firings?
ARNOLD: Right. The government argued that agencies made their own decisions; the firings were proper. But the judge, again, said, quote, "you know, I tend to doubt that you're telling me the truth" at that point. The White House is unamused by all of this. White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said in a statement, quote, "a single judge is attempting to unconstitutionally seize the power of hiring and firing from the executive branch." The administration has now appealed, but now it's not a single judge.
Last night, this ruling came down. In the second case, the judge sided with Democratic state attorneys general. They put a 14-day stay in place on these mass firings. The government there had argued that the states didn't have standing and hadn't been harmed by the firings. Interestingly, though, we should say both judges said, look, we understand the government has a right to do a reduction in force, but it has to follow the law.
FADEL: You know, Chris, this has been so chaotic for federal workers, and it's been an ongoing fight that's really impacting their lives. What are you hearing from them when you speak to them?
ARNOLD: I mean, one thing I've been struck by is that these are not all new hires. I mean, these are probationary workers, but a lot of them have been working in an agency for 10 years, say, and they're probationary 'cause they just got a new job - that they just got promoted. I talked to an employment attorney, Michelle Berkovich, about this. She's working on another effort to reinstate workers.
MICHELLE BERKOVICH: I've looked at data from about 10,000 terminated employees, and what's very clear is that you have everyone from the director or deputy director to the student intern. So you have a huge loss of institutional knowledge. It's just decimated the government.
ARNOLD: And the plaintiff's attorneys in the case say the firings have made Swiss cheese of some of these agencies.
FADEL: OK, so now the judges ordered these workers to be reinstated. Is that going to happen right away?
ARNOLD: Well, the judge in the SF - San Francisco case said immediately. Berkovich is saying don't count on this. The government's been dragging its feet with some of these orders. She's telling workers, look, if you're looking for another job or trying some kind of appeal, just keep doing that.
FADEL: NPR's Chris Arnold. Thank you, Chris.
ARNOLD: Thanks, Leila. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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