STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
The Justice Department has moved on to its next phase of a case to break up Google. If you need some background on this case, we will save you the trouble of Googling it. A judge has already found that Google illegally monopolized its digital advertising technology. And in the past, another ruling said Google had monopolized its search features, too. The company used its power to block competition, according to these rulings. Now the Justice Department and Google are attending a hearing this week to present competing visions for how the company should stop doing all of this.
We're joined by Rohit Chopra. President Trump appointed him to one of the Democratic slots on the U.S. Federal Trade Commission once upon a time, years ago. He was also head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau until President Trump fired him early in his second term. So we called him for his perspective.
INSKEEP: I just want to ask about Google. It's a ubiquitous fact of life. I mean, I use it several times per day without even thinking, and I guess I probably see a lot of Google-placed ads without even thinking that Google was the source. So what does it even mean that they were monopolizing the ad market?
ROHIT CHOPRA: Well, all of us want to make sure that there is a free and fair internet that is open for new competitors. But what the court has found is that Google engaged in a scheme to choke off competition when it comes to online ads. Now, so many local publications, small content creators - they depend on the revenue from ads, and all sorts of businesses spend money to advertise online. And Google took more than its fair share on both sides of that equation.
INSKEEP: I know that the technical parts of this can get complicated. But essentially, we're thinking about, for example, a local newspaper that might once have sold its own ads, but instead, someone is finding their article through Google, and they end up seeing a Google ad. Is that it?
CHOPRA: That's right. In many cases, websites across the internet include technology that integrates Google's advertising protocols. And that means that Google is the one serving up those ads through those websites, even though it is not a Google property. And Google took control of key ad exchanges. This is where advertisers figure out how much they're going to pay. And all of this amounted to a big conflict of interest that really hurt people across the entire economy.
INSKEEP: I want to make sure that I understand the impact to society here. Obviously, there are some people who are doing business who felt they were disadvantaged, but we just talked about local publications like a local newspaper. There is an incredible dearth of local news coverage in this country at this point. Does it seem to you that Google is partly or largely responsible for that, driving a lot of papers out of business or making them much weaker and poorer?
CHOPRA: Well, here's what's interesting. It's not that people aren't wanting to read local news, but the economic model has changed. As journalism has shifted online, those digital ads increasingly have money going to Google and Facebook, rather than the actual publication and the journalists who are writing that content.
INSKEEP: So let's talk through solutions. Do you break up Google? I mean, what are the possible solutions on the table here?
CHOPRA: Well, some people believe that Google's control of ad networks and exchanges are a big problem. It's kind of like a big Wall Street bank owning the New York Stock Exchange. It's a fundamental conflict of interest. I do think we're going to have to look at spinning off various parts of these conglomerates.
INSKEEP: Now, I'm interested in this process because the Justice Department makes its proposal, but Google also gets to make their proposal. What do you do if you're the company that says, actually, we're innocent - we're doing nothing wrong, but they're told anyway, come up with a solution to this problem?
CHOPRA: Well, now the judge is going to look at different ways to fix the problem. But we don't want to see Google put forth something that will do nothing to fix the problem, and I certainly hope they will not try and seek a cheap settlement with the government.
INSKEEP: Speaking as an official who was appointed by President Trump, once upon a time, to an important job in his first term. This administration has given an impression of being antimonopoly and in favor of the little guy. Is that not true?
CHOPRA: It's hard to say when you look at the inauguration, and the front row is full of big tech conglomerate CEOs. And it was recently reported that Mark Zuckerberg met with the president, purportedly to cut some sort of deal to get out of Facebook's own antitrust trial.
INSKEEP: Rohit Chopra is a former commissioner of the Federal Trade Commission and also a former head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Thanks so much.
CHOPRA: Thanks, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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