This interview originally aired on "In the Moment" on SDPB Radio.
South Dakota has a new governor and lieutenant governor. Plus, The Dakota Scout has a new piece on open government and Gov. Noem and Gov. Daugaard's credit card bills.
Jon Hunter is publisher emeritus of the Madison Daily Leader and a member of the South Dakota Newspaper Hall of Fame.
Michael Card, Ph.D., is professor emeritus of political science at the University of South Dakota.
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The following transcript was auto-generated and edited for clarity.
Lori Walsh:
Mike Card and Jon Hunter, welcome back to the studio. Thanks so much for stopping by.
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
Thank you for inviting us.
Jon Hunter:
Thanks, Lori.
Lori Walsh:
It has been a whirlwind of political shifting, and yet we're in the middle of the legislative session, so in some ways, everything is just the same as the business of the state legislature goes on.
We're going to play a sit-down interview with Lieutenant Governor Venhuizen and Governor Rhoden here in a moment on In The Moment: Statehouse, but I wanted to sit down with you first to talk about some of your early impressions about the transition and how this governor has come out of the gate saying, "This is what's going to be the same, this is what might be different."
How people are responding to it, Jon Hunter, from your perspective? What are some of the first things that you have noticed about the shift?
Jon Hunter:
The first thing, Lori, is that Governor Rhoden, I think, is trying to balance the Governor Noem relationship and what he wants to do in the future, and that is a little bit of a delicate balance. Much of what he wants to do falls in line with what Governor Noem was doing. He wanted to portray himself as a loyal lieutenant governor, and she asked him to be loyal when she asked him to be lieutenant governor, and he wanted to live up to that promise, but he also wants to carve his own path a little bit too. So everything I have seen so far is trying to balance Governor Noem's priorities and his, and I think he's doing it pretty well, I think he's giving respect where respect is due and now stretching out a little bit.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. Mike Card, what did you notice right away?
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
Well, I think Governor Rhoden noted that he was going to carry the bills forward that Governor Noem had proposed. Many of these were in bill form to make some cuts to a number of places in order to balance the state's budget, given the projected shortfall. We'll find out this Thursday what the revenue projections are for at this late date.
But I think he's trying to honor what she proposed, and he said that he was aware of what those decisions were, and he's going to carry the water as best he can.
Some of those aren't going to be carried forward. We know the education savings account, or the vouchers as the opponents would call them, the Senate majority leader has said there isn't support in the Senate for that, so they're just not going to go forward with it, so that may be dead. But I think it's right, he's trying to balance, as we hope anyone would do, is to balance your predecessor with your own vision of what should happen to move the state forward.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. We also saw pushback in one of the education committees about the state library and Secretary Graves saying, "With the new funding and the cuts, this is what the role of the state library would be," and legislators saying, "No, we don't accept that, we forward this on with a do not pass."
So you see legislators pushing back on some of the cuts at least, we've heard them say, "We were trying to restore some of the popular cuts."
However, it's a tough revenue year, Jon, and those projections might be even dimmer than what was hoped for.
Jon Hunter:
I do think those cuts will be restored. I think there are opportunities in other parts of the budget as well. Remember too, we have a pre-funding of the prison construction is still in the hopper for $182 million, and to me, that doesn't make any sense to spend that all upfront, to prepay for the entire prison. I think there are many other state priorities.
If I may, I want to shift back to these early impressions of Governor Rhoden, and that is really, it feels, at least in his inauguration speech and what we've heard so far, it's really about South Dakota. There were no mentions in his inauguration speech of any national issues. There was not any Biden-Harris, there was no southern border, there was no Israel, there was no anything about that. He talked about being a fifth-generation South Dakotan on his mom's side, he grew up here, he said he'll die here, he went to school here, all those things.
And I think that is a notable reaction, or a notable statement that he's making, like, "Look, I'm South Dakota," and for those of us who've known him for a long time, believe that, that's who he is. I don't think he has any aspirations to try to impress someone out of state.
So he spent a lot of time in the legislature, including six years as presiding officer of the Senate, and so I think he understands South Dakota's topics and concerns, and I think he's ready to address them.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. One of the things that stood out to me was when he was talking about making things with your hands and enjoying the process of getting something started and seeing it come to completion through your own efforts. I remember thinking, that can't feel like that happens in politics very often, it has to be endlessly frustrating if that's the thing you find the most value in, is to take something from the beginning and shape it to the finish and hold it in your hand. That's the opposite of the State House with how patient you have to be often, Mike, to see things through.
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
In your Tuesday "In the Moment" program, you talked with artists who talked about the art is in the making of the art, not in the finished product. And the finished product with legislation has to be compromises, because there are 105 different voices, so the making of it is the coming together to what's reasonable as an outcome. And I think Governor Rhoden has set forth that that's what he wants.
Lori Walsh:
There was a great moment when we were in the Capitol last week, in the Rotunda, and there was a family sitting on the steps, and our producer, Ari Jungemann, was taking their picture, and little kids were there in their Sesame Street get-ups, and the governor came down the steps and just snuck up and photo-bombed the picture and shook hands with the kids. And I thought, he's having fun, he was smiling.
They didn't know, of course, who the governor was. It was this cool moment to watch. But watching the inauguration and the Grand March as well, they're also taking a moment to have a good time with the fact that this is a big deal for someone to rise to the highest office in South Dakota. Why not?
Jon Hunter:
And a proud moment, to rise to that level, as you pointed out, is a moment of family pride and friends and those who've known Larry and his family all along. I think also he's, at least in his inauguration speech, embraced all of South Dakota, including tribal communities, he'd like to reopen those discussions and to talk with, I think, all parts of South Dakota, all geographies, all ways of life. I just think he's off to a really good start, in my opinion.
Now, you're thrown in halfway through the legislative session, and it gets hard, let's just not sugarcoat that in any way. So people will be coming at him from all directions. There are things behind closed doors that will take place, but I believe that he is sincere about all the words that he said.
And so to me, that's important, because that's the focus of what he wants to do. And then, when you get down to the nitty-gritty, we may discover things are going to be different, but it's a good start.
Lori Walsh:
It feels like all the nice things that anybody will ever say about you have been now said.
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
Yes.
Lori Walsh:
It's not going to get any better than this as far as the love fest that goes on of those first days and those first weeks.
What are you seeing in his selection of Tony Venhuizen as lieutenant governor that was significant for you, Dr. Card?
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
Well, I think part of it is he hasn't been a full-time lieutenant governor, unlike the past couple, and so he's got people around him who are well aware of what state government does and how it goes about doing it. Not that he didn't know from a legislative perspective, but he certainly now has people around him who can give guidance as to both what should be done and what needs to be done. And I think that's an excellent place, is you surround yourself with people who are, to the extent you can, that are better than you are, that know more than you do.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. And this is an appropriations year, this is the year where you want, right by your side, somebody who knows a whole lot about appropriations. Jon?
Jon Hunter:
I think a key selection in that group is Matt Michels, experienced lieutenant governor. I just think he's a terrific politician, or at least administrator. I think that to me is more key than the chief of staff position for Larry Rhoden. Matt Michels, the title is senior advisor, which means he doesn't have as many obligations, you can just do whatever. But I think he's a key element to that. He knows the situation in Pierre. He knows the state. He was an experienced lieutenant governor, probably could have been governor if he'd chosen to run, but I think that's a key element of him.
But I think his staff and Tony are a good selection too. He certainly knows state government from his time as chief of staff twice, under two different governors, briefly in the legislature, but experienced as a student regent when he was at school. So I think that's a good choice as well.
Lori Walsh:
So a lot of people are asking, well, what does this mean for the next gubernatorial race? He said, "No, you cannot glean anything from my selection of Lieutenant Governor Tony Venhuizen about what I will do next, it's not time to talk about that."
Congressman Johnson has pushed aside a request to say, what are you doing next, he said before, he'll probably run for governor, but then he said no. So this is the moment where everybody focuses and says publicly that they are doing the job that the people have elected them to do, from attorney general, to congressman, to governor, to lieutenant governor, to senior advisor, and yet there are a whole lot of people who are trying to guess what everyone's ambitions are and how some of those pieces will get moved across the board.
I'll be honest, that is not something that keeps me up at night. I'm not the kind of person who does a lot of gamesmanship and guessing to who's going to announce and when and what that primary might look like.
But having said that, what matters now is how all of these people legislate and how all of them do their jobs. Are there things that you would need to lay down to say, "If I do run for the next office, or I do do the next thing, I want to keep this promise, or I want this to show up very well"? It's not just about serving the public is what I'm saying, it's also about thinking about your political future.
Any insight into how some of these folks think about their political future?
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
I don't know that it's any more than what you would expect, the attorney general is being tough on crime and showing that he's into openness and prosecuting those who would steal money from the state and being tough on drugs, and all of the things that you would expect an attorney general who's running either for reelection or for a higher office to do. I don't think we've seen much from whether Tony Venhuizen has aspirations to be governor at this point or Matt Michels, I don't think we've seen anything from that. And Governor Rhoden said, "It's not time to think about it."
And for most campaigns, this is the quiet time, this is the time to understand who's going to support me financially, who's going to support me with endorsements? And it's not open for public view, but that's what's going on behind the scenes.
Lori Walsh:
Speaking of open for public view, let's touch on some reporting that we've seen in The Dakota Scout, which is still ongoing, about Governor Kristi Noem's and Governor Dennis Daugaard's credit card records not being open. I'll just refer everybody to The Scout for the actual reporting.
But essentially, this desire, Jon Hunter, to know what Governor Kristi Noem was spending money on in her personal or her state-funded credit card, as a journalist, how have you thought about this over the past, as you've talked with public officials about what they're spending, how they're spending it, and what we get to know about what they're spending?
Jon Hunter:
Taxpayer funds, by law and by any ethic anywhere, should be available to the public. So if you or I spend government money on a new chair or something like that, that should be known to the public. For some reason, there's been this exception carved out for credit card expenses. It doesn't make any sense to me. If you go to open.sd.gov, you can see all sorts of South Dakota government expenditures, but the credit card expense will just say it goes to Visa for $50,000 a month or whatever that amount is, but the detail is not in there, it doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't matter what form it would be paid in, whether you pay something with a credit card or with a paper check, that shouldn't be the difference between whether it is open or closed.
And as the world evolves, as more payments are made electronically, fewer are made by a paper check, does that mean this exception would grow?
The truth is, for Governor Noem, if she spends money of her salary or of her family money or anything else, that should be completely private. That's hers, she can spend it on whatever she wants. If you're spending State of South Dakota money on something, we should be able to know what it is. Now, whether we agree with it or not, it doesn't really matter. You can spend it on a new airplane. Remember the controversy with spending it on planes? So whether that's a good decision or not is not the issue here. The issue here is, did they spend money on an airplane? And now, in the case of Governor Noem and The Dakota Scout reporting, credit card expenses, whether they're a hotel or you go to Subway for lunch or whatever, doesn't really matter, it should be open to the public, regardless of what form it is.
Lori Walsh:
Right. Mike, anything you would add about the importance of open government, or what might happen next as this sorts itself out through the courts?
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
Well, almost every elected official puts a claim on being the most transparent or the most open, and if some things aren't, it brings a question of, well, why aren't these open? And that then raises questions about, well, what's being hidden? Because if you can't see it, then what is going on here? And I think the transparency of how the state spends its money and who directs that, those are things that just should be open.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. And do they get approved? Who approves the individual Subway or hotel room or monthly limits on that? Who approves that? Because as we look at cutting and we look at revenues being down, people are going to want to know whether those expenses were reasonable in a time of fiscal responsibility.
Jon Hunter:
A very important point. I'm glad you brought it up, Lori, because the issue of control, especially as we've seen in South Dakota lack of some controls of that, there should be some control of everything. Now, whether it's approved by someone or even just by policy. A policy is a different form of control. The governor wouldn't have a superior to who she would have to ask if she could do this, but there should be some sort of policy that said, "For most state employees, if you stay at a hotel, it has to be at the state rate or whatever."
Lori Walsh:
Yes, it does.
Jon Hunter:
And let's say there's an exception for the governor, that she can stay at nicer places or more secure places or whatever it is, that's fine, but there should be a policy for that, and at the very least, there should be a budget.
You say, "Look, here's the governor's travel budget, it's $1 million for this year, can't exceed that." Now, if you choose to spend it in one city versus another that's within the logical parameters of an executive, they could choose how to spend that budget.
But once that budget is approved by the legislature and signed by the governor, it should be held. So what happens underneath there, you should have some flexibility in the budgets to say, "Look, we're going to go to Memphis instead of Tulsa this year." But there should be some sort of control, to your point, Lori.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. All right. Well, you mentioned the prison, we'll have a lot more reporting this week from Lee Strubinger on that because we're going to know more about revenue in the days ahead.
And we're going to take a break and come back with some of that interview with Governor Rhoden and Lieutenant Governor Venhuizen.
Jon Hunter and Michael Card, thanks so much for being here.
Jon Hunter:
Thanks, Lori.
Michael Card, Ph.D.:
Thanks, Lori.
