NOTE: This conversation took place March 24th, 2020
You may listen to this conversation in its entirety here:
Lori Walsh: Congressman Dusty Johnson joins us today for an update on congressional efforts to blunt the impact of the coronavirus in the United States, which includes negotiating an economic stimulus package. Congressman Johnson, thanks for joining us today. We appreciate your time.
Dusty Johnson: Yeah, you bet, Lori. Of course.
Lori Walsh: All right. Tell us an update on how those negotiations are going today.
Dusty Johnson: Well, I think we've gotten back on track. The vote on Sunday night was a setback, as was the one on Monday. We had had a pretty good run of bipartisan cooperation, and I know Congress is not known for that, but in the previous two weeks we had voted through a couple of really important COVID-19 response packages on big bipartisan votes.
This third package, which is, as you mentioned, is largely an economic stimulus package, we're going to get it done this week. Again, it's going to be strongly bipartisan. It's going to be focused a lot on families and on small businesses. I expect the Senate is going to approve it today. I hope they are, and then obviously, the ball's going to be in the House's court.
Lori Walsh: We've also heard about a House package from Nancy Pelosi. Your thoughts on that going forward, and how those two will get reconciled?
Dusty Johnson: Yeah. I don't know that anybody in DC really thinks that the Pelosi bill is going anywhere, and I think the speaker would admit meant that her bill is not going to get enacted into law. Everybody looks for leverage at these times. That's one of the most disappointing parts about DC, in my mind. It just operates so differently than [peer 00:01:41] does, but I think the speaker wanted to make sure that she had a seat at the table.
I think she felt that having her own bill as a counterweight, as a countermeasure, to the Senate bill would maybe give her a little more leverage. I don't know that it's worked out that way, but I do know that I expect they're going to have a legitimate deal and a vote later today, and certainly, it's going to be strongly bipartisan. The Senate and the House are going to come together and get this done.
Lori Walsh: So you're planning on voting against the House bill, do you think? Maybe you haven't decided yet.
Dusty Johnson: Well, the Pelosi bill will never have a vote. What's going to happen is that ... The Senate bill, we continue to call it the Senate bill, it's not the Senate bill. The House has been involved in negotiations all along the way. Both Republican leaders and Democrat leaders. I know that I've been involved in negotiations. On Friday, I had 14 different meetings related to this economic stimulus package.
And so, when the Senate votes today, as I hope they do, then that'll go over to the House, and the House is not going to tinker with it, because at that point, we need to get our act together. Our act will have been together. We will have done the Senate package together, the House will approve it on a strongly bipartisan basis, and the President will sign it the next day. That's what I think is going to happen. The Pelosi bill will never get a vote.
Lori Walsh: We're hearing the Pelosi bill has things about the green new deal, and other things that are not related to coronavirus. We're hearing that what many people are calling the Senate deal has education for abstinence programs and other things that are not related to the coronavirus. That doesn't seem like a hard thing to eliminate to focus on the task at hand. Is that true? Do people just keep throwing in these sort of things that are unrelated, and how do you stop that?
Dusty Johnson: Well, I do think the Pelosi bill has a number of unrelated provisions, and I think the speaker has done that because she wants leverage. Right? And if she can show ... If she's asking for a hundred things, she's more likely to get 20 than if she only asks for 20 things. So I think it's a bargaining approach on her part.
I don't love what she's done there, but she's certainly not the first one to use these tactics. That is not really the case with the McConnell bill. The McConnell bill is the McConnell bill. It has been drafted with Democrats and Republicans at the table the entire time. There were task forces put together, Democratic leader Schumer appointed people to those task forces, as did McConnell. They worked together on a language, and that's why you're going to see, with just a few tweaks, that bipartisan Senate bill will be passed with overwhelming numbers in both the Senate and the House.
I know a lot of people, for political reasons, have attempted to demonize it, but I think you're going to see that people on both sides of the aisle are going to embrace that bill once it passes.
Lori Walsh: Does it have things like a funding for abstinence education in it that you've seen?
Dusty Johnson: No. No, I don't know that. I mean, I have heard that. I have seen no evidence of that. I have reviewed the legislation. Obviously, there are lots of different versions, because things change over time, but I have not seen that.
What I have seen is really robust funding, tax rebate checks to American families. I have seen forgivable loans for small businesses. I have seen loans to larger businesses. People keep talking about free money, and bailouts to large industries. I understand why people are interested in demonizing legislation, but those components simply aren't in the bill.
Lori Walsh: So let's talk about what this bill does. If it does pass, as you're predicting that it will, in a bipartisan fashion, all right, what's coming, South Dakotans? What do you want them to anticipate here?
Dusty Johnson: Well, there's going to be robust investment on the healthcare side. There's going to be robust investment in unemployment insurance for people who aren't able to get back to work. But the rest of the ... And that stuff is important. But I'd focus on the rest of the package, because the rest of the package is really focused on making sure we get people back to work, or even more importantly, that they never lose their jobs in the first place.
One of the most devastating impacts of the 2008 and 2009 recession was that so many people lost their jobs, and it was not a two or three or four or five year problem. It took us a decade to build back up that labor force. To the extent we can stop those job losses, 200,000 people lost their jobs yesterday. We have got to stop that, and if we can do that, then there isn't any reason that the economy can't rebound relatively quickly.
If we can stop the job losses, then I believe that before the end of the year, we're going to be back in economic expansion mode. Second quarter is going to be difficult. Third quarter may be difficult, but we ... The fundamentals of the economy are still strong. So how do we do that, to answer your question? The first will be $1,200 payments in the next few weeks to American adults, $500 payments for children.
Those would be income tested, so the checks would get smaller as your income goes up. And that is going to have ... That is going to allow people who can't get to work to do things like pay the rent and pay their utilities. It's going to draw down the number of loan defaults, which we want. We don't want people who have done nothing wrong to have their credit destroyed for the next seven years because of an infectious disease.
Then for small businesses, it's critically important that we give small businesses the liquidity they need, the cash they need, to pay their bills during this valley of the shadow of death. And so there will be forgivable loans.
I would expect that the SBA will work with community vendors, so that small businesses will be able to go to the banker that they've used for years, be able to get eight weeks of operating capital, and if, and this is critically important, Lori, if that company keeps their payroll expense up, if they bring their people back to work, or if they keep their people on work, if they keep that payroll expense up, then large portions of that loan will be forgivable.
That is kind of really helped make sure that we don't have job losses more than we have to in this country. And then just two more things. I know I'm rambling on, but I would say, for large industries, there won't be that kind of forgivable loan. For large industries, there would be an opportunity to access some loans, but there'll be things they have to pay back.
And then finally, for ag-producers who are really in a bad spot right now, we have been fighting and fighting, and we have been successful in gaining inclusion of dollars to, in essence, have a third round of the market facilitation payments, the MFP payments you and I have spoken about before. The last two years, it's been because of China disruption. This year, it would be because of COVID-19.
Lori Walsh: You mentioned, President Trump mentioned in his press conference yesterday that the cure can't be worse than the disease, and you can see some antsiness to get America back to work. He said America wasn't designed to be shut down. You're talking about those small businesses keeping their payroll going and things like that.
Talk a little bit about balancing public health with economic health, and how do you feel, personally, that the social distancing and the isolation and the closing of businesses and the drastic measures that we're taking, is it working? Do we need to keep doing it? Because there is some confusion in South Dakota about whether or not those efforts are worthwhile.
Dusty Johnson: Well, I think you have to be guided by data. And I'm glad you used the word balancing, because clearly, that's a part of it, right? We know that we want to be guided by good evidence, and good data, and we want to hear from a lot of different worldviews and technical expertises when making these decisions.
But we do need to do social distancing. I believe that it is working. I believe that we are flattening the curve. I do believe that that will mean worldwide, hundreds of thousands, and maybe millions of people, who are not going to end up in the hospital, who will not die, who otherwise might have, had we treated this threat more cavalierly.
And I know this is difficult. Today is my middle son's 12th birthday. Of course, he wants to be at school with his friends. Of course, he wants to have a big birthday party. He's a very social kid, and he will never get this birthday back. But I know, and he knows, even at his young age, he knows that you cannot disregard good science and good public health because it is an inconvenience to you.
And I believe that if we continue this initial 15 day period, if we continue to have good compliance, that we're going to make the weeks after that less onerous. Not that we'll be able to lift up all of ... Not that we're going to be able to get back to business as usual. We're a long ways away from that. But every 15 day period where we can be focused and driven by good practices and CDC recommendations, that will make the next 15 day period easy, easier on us, and that's what we need to focus on.
Lori Walsh: How are you practicing these techniques in your life as you do the work in Washington? Certainly, we've heard about others in the Senate and the House who are not taking the measures that the rest of us are being told to take.
Dusty Johnson: Yeah. I have four good friends who are COVID-19 positive. Two of them are South Dakotans, and two of them are members of Congress. The members of Congress, Congressman McAdams, a Democrat from Utah, and Mario Diaz-Balart, a Republican from Florida. They're some of my favorites. They are just outstanding public servants. They are optimistic people who care about this country, and it was really hard to hear about them going into the hospital because he got so sick.
We are going to, in the House, we're going to be practicing. We're going to be following the CDC's recommendations. We're not going to have 435 of us on the floor at one time. When it comes time to vote for the Senate bill that is going to provide real assistance to Americans, we're going to stagger voting. We're going to wipe down the voting machines after every group of members comes in. We're going to do what we can to make sure that we keep our members and their families healthy.
Lori Walsh: In the McConnell bill you mentioned, or the Senate bill, as some people are calling it, this pending stimulus package, which you're predicting will get bipartisan support, you mentioned healthcare investments, and I guess this is my last question before I let you go get back to work, because I know you have a town hall tonight as well.
Lori Walsh: Is that money to healthcare facilities? Does it get to South Dakota in time for our anticipated surge here? Governor Noem has voiced some frustrations with being forgotten out here on the ground. She said in her press conference today, politics as usual, she's been frustrated with from Washington. What's your message to people from South Dakota who are saying, when those numbers start coming in, and their local hospitals are being overwhelmed, is there going to be money to increase their capacity in time?
Dusty Johnson: Yeah. And I would tell you, I don't think the healthcare systems and the independent hospitals and the providers, I don't think they're waiting around for the big check from Washington. I think they are ... They have not been overrun or exhausted with COVID-19 response yet, but they are preparing to do the very best job. And so they've ordered ventilators, and they've ordered personal protective equipment, and they are getting ready.
I think they understand that those bills will come due, and they're going to need to be able to pay their bills, and that the federal government will be a substantial help to that. But they, I think, would tell you that their preparation has not been slowed because they've been penny wise and pound foolish.
And so, when we pass that bill, I think it's going to send a strong message to them that when you've got hundreds of billions of dollars that are going to be invested in this response, that of course, Congress needs to do everything it can to make sure that that money hits the street quickly. But I don't think the hospitals are just waiting around for the check.
Lori Walsh: Have they been slowed by lack of supplies and inability to get things?
Dusty Johnson: Yeah. I clearly think that supply chains have been strained, and I think that is less about federal funding and more about ... Because we passed a $1 billion funding package two weeks ago, to states, tribes and localities. The reality is, money can't buy something that doesn't exist. And clearly, it has taken manufacturers a couple of weeks, a couple of months, to get up to speed.
I think we're making real headway. I know, I know. I have a friend, in fact, he's a member of Congress, who has a whiskey distillery that he's converted to making hand sanitizer. And I know ethanol plants have made conversions. I have friends who are in manufacturing who have converted to making ventilators and to making masks.
And so we are seeing the market respond, and it's frustrating that it doesn't show up overnight, but I think it also, like so many things with COVID-19, it reminds us to be thankful of the incredible efforts that people are making to have this be something that we can survive and ultimately come out of together.
Lori Walsh: We will leave it there for now. Congressman Dusty Johnson, happy birthday to your son, and thank you for the work that you're doing in Washington. We'll talk to you again later.
Dusty Johnson: Anytime, Lori. Thanks.
You can access all of SDPB's COVID-19 coverage at www.sdpb.org/covid