This interview originally aired on "In the Moment" on SDPB Radio.
As state lawmakers submit their bills this session, they face a challenging revenue outlook.
Two former legislators with longstanding service on the Joint Appropriations Committee offer their analysis.
Linda Duba is a former Democratic representative in the South Dakota House. And Jean Hunhoff is a former Republican senator in the state Legislature.
____________________________________________________________
The following transcript was auto-generated and edited for clarity.
Lori Walsh:
I want to do a little update on the appropriations committee, particularly because the new lieutenant governor is Tony Venhuizen, who was on the Appropriations Committee. He will have to be replaced.
How big of a deal is it to lose that experience on that committee, Senator Hunhoff we'll start with you, and really bring somebody new in at this point in session?
Jean Hunhoff:
Well, I think it'll be a challenge. Certainly the majority are new members and you bring someone else who maybe hasn't been following the process. They're going to have to get up to speed. In the departmental agencies they've been reviewing, there's a lot of information that has been out there, and so they will be at a disadvantage.
Now, it depends, again, on where they're going to be coming in and who they're going to be aligning with.
It'll be in the House, but certainly there's some different opinions that are out there. So it'll depend on where that individual, I think, is coming from.
And again, I don't know if there's some applicants out there that might have served in the legislature before and maybe have been on appropriations. Again, how that decision will be made.
But for right now, if you bring someone who has had no experience, it will be a challenge for that individual, and the importance will be where they line up with the rest of the committee in that House.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. Linda Duba, what would you add to that?
Linda Duba:
I don't know that I could say much more.
I've heard some people that have applied for that District 13 position, and I know one of them is a very seasoned appropriations person. I was a little surprised to hear that name. So we'll see how that goes down.
Who do they replace Tony with in the House in general? And is that an individual who does have experience and appropriations and could slide right in? Or is it someone else? Because I've also heard other names coming from the House, so I don't know.
Jean Hunhoff:
Just an interjection. That's not to say that they'll be appointed to appropriations either.
I think it depends on who gets in there. And then, he's on that committee, but it goes back to the Speaker of the House to make that decision where that person goes on committees.
And I guess from past experience, when have people come in, there's been some switching that has gone on. So I don't know if it's an automatic to say, "Well, yep, that person will go to appropriations."
I think, in fairness, it may or may not occur.
Linda Duba:
Very true.
Lori Walsh:
So the advantages, or not, of Rep. Venhuizen becoming lieutenant governor in this difficult budget year, and then also bringing with him the experience and the knowledge that he had going in, intersect that with the fact that we know Governor Rhoden said, in his first address to the session, that he was not going to reintroduce a new budget. That he would be working with Governor Kristi Noem's proposed budget.
He was aware that there were many programs that were popular that he wanted to work to restore, but it was going to be a very challenging revenue year. So that was what we kind of heard out of the gate from him.
From a revenue message, we know Lieutenant Governor Tony Venhuizen has this experience, but what's his role? Is it separated from appropriations at this point?
Linda, what do you see happening next with this particular configuration, which is really brand new?
Linda Duba:
Well, I would say that Lieutenant Governor Venhuizen will keep a very close eye on appropriations for Governor Rhoden's office for the executive branch. And he will probably be whispering in the ear of both the chairs.
Jean, do you think I'm wrong there?
Jean Hunhoff:
No, I don't think you are. I also think, again, as an appropriator, and you and I worked both with him and as co-chair, he certainly has some policies regarding appropriations that he has brought out in the past.
And I think you're absolutely right. He's bringing that perspective, which is a very positive for the governor with his knowledge base. But I guess the question out there is everything that he has been on page with, will that be on page with the governor?
Linda Duba:
Right.
Lori Walsh:
Sure, sure. Anything else before we pivot to a few things that have been interesting this past week, especially the education savings account debate?
But before we pivot to that, Jean, do you see anything else in the appropriations committee that's been coming out of there that you think is really worth noting right now?
Jean Hunhoff:
Well, I'm just going to give some observations. I think my first one, and I haven't listened to all the committee meetings and I have not listened to the workgroups, but in what I've been listening to, what really has surprised me is, because we have so many new members, it's the questions that are being asked by the committee members.
They're all very good questions. But for new legislators to walk into appropriations, I am not hearing questions being asked that I thought from all my years that have been in there, whenever we've got new members.
So that makes me think that, number one, either joint chairs did a great job in orientating the new members or there's more discussion going on outside the committee by the individual caucuses as to where that budget is going.
And I think the other thing that I sort of was a little surprised by, in the sense that they're certainly looking at not necessarily the revenues. Other than property tax replacement, I've heard some of that, but decreasing programming, and in listening to some of the departments that have come to present, even asking some way high questions, not really understanding what the implications are if you're going to take away those dollars. What the impact would be.
Certainly the groups that are affected are presenting either their opposition to reductions and why we need it, but there's not a lot of vetting out or ferreting as to what's really the implication and do you understand where those dollars that are not coming and what's the unintended consequences that are going to come out?
So the flavor there is very broad based, not real concise yet, which is typical. But for a new group, I find that very interesting.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah.
Linda Duba:
And Senator Hunhoff, you and I discussed this, this new one-stop center in Sioux Falls. There's a workgroup assigned to that whole piece that's happening.
And we're going to be moving many, well, all of the departments that are certainly in the Sears building and then others into this building. And the rents are three and four times more, and there's a 30-year lease that's been signed with that building.
So I know the workgroup is taking a look at that to find out do they have any wiggle room? Does this need to happen? Can we renegotiate that lease? These rents are extremely high. And in a tough budget year, to have your rent triple or even quadruple, that is putting a lot of stress, and again, taking away, as Senator Hunhoff said, from programming that's essential to the state of South Dakota and to its people.
Lori Walsh:
One of the challenges I feel very good about is the reach of this program, but there are a lot of people who are going to have no idea that anything is happening in Pierre until a program disappears.
Linda Duba:
That's right.
Lori Walsh:
And then they'll want to know what happened in Pierre. It's hard to reach all the constituents. Do you get calls throughout the legislative session?
I guess what I'm wondering is are lawmakers trying to connect with their constituents in specific ways to find out some of that impact, Senator Hunhoff?
Or is that something that just comes up in the committee when the departments are there in front of them? Or are you calling back home somehow? Or are you crowdsourcing questions from voters? How do you stay connected with the people who put you in office?
Jean Hunhoff:
Again, I can't speak for this group that's there. We had one cracker barrel here and I listened to it and it's sort of a formatted, so there wasn't really that opportunity for the, I guess, participants to ask direct questions. They're formatted and just answers.
But from my previous history, when there was a subject out there that was impacted, I contacted them, and those groups would also contact. And I think, again, when you're looking at social programming, those are people services, and if you don't understand what those people services are and what they directly do and what the outcomes are, it's very easy to bypass that.
So I don't know if these people are reaching out.
I'm sure in listening to the opponent testimony on some of that funding certainly was definitive and they presented, but I don't know the style of this new group, what it is that they go out to seek more because you're covering a lot of information, and to get that additional information takes time.
So again, I can only say what I did, but I don't know what these new people are doing. I don't see, in our community, anything publicly other than another cracker barrel next weekend in a small community, but it appears most of the discussion that I'm hearing on are more on the policy issues than I am hearing in the community about funding, other than those that are direct providers of care.
Linda Duba:
Yeah.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about education savings accounts, because this was a big push from Gov. Kristi Noem. Gov. Larry Rhoden in his speech also said that he was very interested in pursuing ideas about school choice.
But some of the early bills have failed and not come out of committee, but the debate is far from over. And certainly the homeschooling community, the micro schools, the parochial schools, they're all interested in this idea of vouchers or education savings accounts.
Rep. Duba, I heard Secretary of Education Graves say that there are education deserts in South Dakota when he was speaking in support of House Bill 1020, I think it was.
And that surprised me to hear the Secretary of Education say there are education deserts in the public schoos and that he would want to support an alternative to public schools. I would've thought that would be his responsibility to address the schools that he considered were struggling.
Linda Duba:
Yes, his testimony, I will say it, it was very disappointing when he made that statement coupled with the fact that he said, "It's time for our public schools to have competition."
So let's do one thing. Let's say this now, school choice has always been there. You have the choice to homeschool your child, send them to a micro school, send them to a private school, just not on the state's budget. So let's be clear on that. You have school choice today.
But the more important thing is the Department of Education Secretary should be looking for ways to improve the public education and not be bringing in an outside competitor to say, "Oh, competition is good."
So this is demoralizing to parents, to teachers, to administrators and to staff. We're already seeing a crunch in what we're doing, and we heard testimony from several individuals that are serving on school boards as to how this 1.25% increase is going to impact them and they're not going to be able to. As their costs increase, they know based on the law we passed last year, that they still have to maintain a certain level of teacher pay, but that doesn't cover all of the other costs for staffing and supplies and the things that we need.
Public education, also, I'm going to say this, we just gave them $6 million for the science of reading, and now we've brokered it such that, starting this year in the next fiscal year '26, we will no longer need to pay an outside vendor for that program.
The Board of Regents has worked out a curriculum with the Department of Education that our teachers can take advantage of to help teachers even more accelerate their knowledge of improving learning techniques for students. That's what we should be focusing on instead of hearing about education deserts. "Oh, you've got an education desert? Let's go get a private school or a micro school."
That makes no sense. Let's go figure out how we lift up our educators and our programs. Thank you.
Lori Walsh:
Senator Hunhoff, what did you hear in the education savings account debate that stood out to you as something that would be relevant for listeners today?
Jean Hunhoff:
I think you just mentioned these deserts. Where is this? We've never heard about this before.
Again, I will refer to what Rep. Duba said, choice has all has always been there. We have the insurance tax that is going to support that outside group. That is really a community group that is allocating resources. And we always hear about, in any of the cuts that are being made, "Well, go back to the community." Well, the insurance, we gave them that opportunity and they took that. So we have done some funding.
And I agree with Rep. Duba, we've got to focus on K-12. And if a person wants that other opportunity, they can do it. It's going to be a battle and I do believe it's going to come back in some form, as you have alluded to, there's all kinds of options to bring a similar bill, smoke it out or do anything like that. There seems to be a momentum.
I think, again, the data that they're using out there, again, we don't know where those deserts are. Secondly, there was allusion to the scores going down and they're blaming that on COVID and still some. And I don't think that's the answer either. I don't think we have accurate data to reflect what these individuals are doing.
Plus, again, the other thing is they don't fall under the purview of the Department of Education. They get the money to do within the criteria that's established, but we don't sit on their school boards, we don't sit, when I say we, I mean the community. None of that taxpayer, other than those that are sending their kids to that school or that micro school or doing the homeschool milling, and there's no data or equity in, are their standards the same? Do they need to be the same? Do they need to be different?
Those are things that I think we need to get clarification on, especially if you're going to go that direction, so that if that individual chooses a different option than the public school system, they need to be meeting the same standards, they need to have the expected outcomes, and they need to have transparency if we're putting those dollars in there.
Linda Duba:
Yeah.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah.
Linda Duba:
Well, let's also talk about the fact that there was a survey recently done, and 58% of the public — 20 points higher than those who are in favor of doing this — 38% said, "Hey, yeah, this is a good idea." 58% of South Dakotans surveyed said, "No, we need to improve our current public education system and lift up our teachers and our administrators."
So what does that tell us? We're pushing something in the legislature that isn't popular with the public. And to your point, Senator Hunhoff, where are their standards? Remember, these people can accept who they want. Public schools support everyone. This is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
We have no data. We've asked for it multiple times. We ask for it for the pie money and they can't produce it. They can't show us where people are performing better.
Lori Walsh:
As you look at the first few days of Gov. Larry Rhoden's term, his speech to the joint session and some of the things he's coming out of the gate with, are there impressions that you have about his leadership going forward?
We'll start with you, Senator Hunhoff. Did you hear things that you thought, "Okay, this is a change. This is, in fact, a reset." We know he's very politically aligned with Gov. Kristi Noem, but maybe he has a very distinctly different leadership style.
What would you pull out?
Jean Hunhoff:
I think the one that he has really emphasized is engaging with the people of South Dakota. He said his communication is going to be better.
And I think the other side of it, I served with the governor for 24 years, we started together in the legislature, so I've been around him a long time. He has that ability with the humor to infuse that. And he's also been someone to sit down at the table and try to work out solutions.
Like I said, here's what I see in the sense he has been lieutenant governor, so he hasn't really been in the eye, but he hasn't been out there. Now he's got two years to demonstrate what his agenda is and to reignite that office because I think the priorities of our former governor sort of shifted this past year.
And so I think he's trying to say, "Wait a minute, I'm going to be back here. I'm going to be out and about and I'm going to talk to people. I'm going to listen. I'm going to sit down." And to me, that's a different kind of style than we had. And that's not a negative or a positive. That's just his style. And I think that's where the proof of the pudding is.
And he's going to be challenged this session because you've already alluded to the fact that he's carrying what the Gov. Noem has proposed and just in this last conversation about funding for choices. He's going to have to deal with that.
And I think, also in his commentary, he talked about the people that have surrounded him that he's brought in his executive staff to support him and to help him in finding the right solutions that are out there.
And I think the other thing that is interesting is that I believe it was announced that the lieutenant governor's going to be full time. And so that's another change. So does that add strength then in those two individuals working together now on a daily basis rather than just during session? And are those two heads together going to bring out better solutions for what we're trying to deal with?
Lori Walsh:
Rep. Duba, what would you say about Gov. Rhoden?
Linda Duba:
The thing that I heard him also say is he talked about civility, and he wants to bring civility back. Things have been somewhat adversarial from time to time in Pierre between the executive branch and the legislative branch, and even within the legislative branch, as we know.
So I think it's important that he's pushing the fact that we need to be respectful of one another. And as Senator Hunhoff said, he's going to be a listener and he's going to be in South Dakota, focused on South Dakotans.
I also heard he invited in Keloland TV on his first day and he had gave what a press conference and then he said, "I had an opportunity to go to the prison. First time I'd ever been there."
So he's already starting to take charge in the areas that are really hot spots, the prison being one, and he's pushing for a new facility, which makes my heart happy because we need to improve those conditions, both for the employees and for the inmates. So he's really focused on South Dakota's needs and the people of the state.
Lori Walsh:
Yeah. I was able to sit down with Lieutenant Governor Venhuizen an hour after the announcement and am still working on the schedule for an interview with the governor and lieutenant governor together. But that's all coming together as schedules merge.
So definitely a change from the press standpoint as far as access going forward.
What else is on your mind as we wrap up? Any final topics you want to hit or talk about, Senator Hunhoff?
Jean Hunhoff:
Well, I think it's going to get more interesting, is what I'm going to say, because these policy issues are continuing to bubble, come out of committee, get to the floor, and you're seeing some changes among legislators that were here last year and now that are this year and how they're voting on some of these policy issues.
I think there's a ramping up for the next election in South Dakota as to who's going to be in that leadership, and I think everyone's going to be trying to identify who's who out there, and that's all going to be part of this next session.
Lori Walsh:
Rep. Duba?
Linda Duba:
I agree a hundred percent. We're going to see some really interesting bills come through committee right now.
It's a tough time right now in South Dakota. We've got a tough revenue stance and a budget year, we've got people concerned about their property taxes, about costs in general, and yet we continue to see these bills that are what I like to refer to as one-off culture wars that really are just marginalized tiny little groups of people or really promote or push an agenda that just isn't top of mind for most people at the kitchen table.
So you're right, Senator Hunhoff, people are already positioning themselves for the next election when, you know what? Your job should be nose-to-the-grindstone.
Let's go figure out how we make this budget work and how we do the best we can for the people of South Dakota. I would encourage legislators to get familiar with what's happening in that appropriations room even though they're not in there.
Talk to those appropriators and really start to focus on programming.
Lori Walsh:
Sen. Jean Hunhoff?
Jean Hunhoff:
If I could just add one more thing, and Linda, you respond back to this.
The one piece that hasn't been listened to is the federal dollars. They're looking at certainly general fund dollars. That's what makes the impact as far as programming but not knowing what's coming out of Washington on those federal dollars that supplement, I mean, those are the dollars that keep most of our programs stable, that help education and that help roads. And I haven't heard of that commentary or what is anticipated on that.
I know transportation talked a little bit. They were talking about electric vehicles and they're only licensed $50 and that's all the revenue, but they use the roads.
But I sense that if what we heard prior to the election, that there's going to be reductions in federal dollars, well, it's not only in the bureaucracy and the people in Washington, D.C., but it's also in programs that are being supported.
And if those dollars don't come down to the states, then South Dakota, like every other state, is going to have to pick up more or make more serious decisions about programming that they're going to stop.
Linda Duba:
One hundred percent. What we've seen in the last week coming out of Washington, an edict that says, "We're going to freeze all federal grants." Wow.
Now we had the Department of Homeland Secretary say, "No more money is going to these agencies who are not doing Jesus-like situations."
All of this rhetoric that's coming down from Washington around federal dollars and grants is actually going to very much negatively impact the budget in the state of South Dakota.
And we're not talking just going forward. If we're freezing those grants right now, that is going to affect existing programming today and we're already starting to see it.
So thank you for bringing that up. I'm glad you chimed in with that. It's a major concern that I have.
Lori Walsh:
Lots of question marks, lots of things to follow in the days ahead, and we thank you both for helping guide us through with your experience and your insights.
Thanks for your time.
Linda Duba:
Thank you.
Jean Hunhoff:
Thank you.
